Street Fighter IV Discussion Pt. 2

Street Fighter IV Discussion Part 2

This is part 2 of our Street Fighter IV discussion. You can find part 1 here.

Chris:
I felt that Sirlin's points were a little sour grapes from him not being included in the design maybe, BUT they were all legit. Pressing 3 buttons at once is pretty annoying (I don't even like pressing 2 for X moves, but I'm using d-pad) and double quarter circles or back forth, back forth ultras are WAY hard I think.

I do think you need the 6 button set up, as it is Street Fighter. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 had too much "auto" combo because of the 4 button fighting. It was hit the same button twice, and you automatically get 2 different hits. The mediums add a new set of moves, pokes, fireball speeds, etc. It really helps and adds to the variety of moves. Tekken's 4 button set up corresponded to limbs, and Soul Calibur corresponded to direction. Street Fighter is strength. (though now that we've gone to 3D I HATE it that if you jump over your opponent you don't see the backside of your character, and he starts punching with your other hand. If it's using 3D they should turn the models around.)

I've been talking with my roommate about this though, and he's a Street Fighter noob. The only fighting game he plays is Smash Bros. and he won the company tournament the other day. His big complaint is doing the special moves; he can't do double quarter circles, or any of those where you charge down then up and back and forth (like Guile's Ultra Flash Kick, I can't get that sometimes too). It made me think of the special moves set up. I think that charging for moves should be removed. It really hampers a character. Imagine how much better Guile would be if Sonic Booms and Flash Kicks were just Dragon Punches and fireball motions? How much suckier Ryu would be if he had to charge back and forth to throw a fireball. The charging ultras are much more difficult to combo into and do in general. If you whiff the execution you usually eat it, as opposed to say Ryu's where you would just throw a fireball. I know good players are constantly charging a Sonic Boom/Flash Kick (I play like that too) but that's something you have to constantly do on the controller, and when you get crossed up you lose your charge. Also you can't get into fireball matches with Ryu because of the speed. Possibly "charging" should be changed to something like back, back, forward + punch...and definitely get rid of the charge specials.

Binkley:
I feel this game gets at least -1.0-->-2.0 based on graphics alone. Man hands on Chun-Li are actually the least of your worries when you have C.Viper's faux muffin top and terrible faces.

Why can't we go to a 4 button game for SF? I don't like the "well the game has always had 6 buttons" because that's a bad argument. Street Fighter 1 had an arcade setup where there's only 2 big pads and you had to mash them with various pressure to change the attacks so the 6 button setup isn't even that historic.

If you want, you can even make it so certain combination of 2 buttons still produce mid attacks. I believe this is how MvC2 works and while you are introducing 2 button combination it seems to work fine in that game. However, just because it's 4 buttons and a Capcom game doesn't mean it has to play like MvC2. DOA and VF both use 3 buttons and play very differently.

I actually like the fact that you still "cross-up" people in this game...it feels really 2D and "legit". Though you are right that in a 3D game this makes no sense...but this game is really not 3D despite the graphics.

Charging characters/commands are iconic though...isn't this what makes this Street Fighter? (Even more so than 6 buttons?) I'm fine with there being charge/other types of characters; it's variety. Let's be honest in any given fighting game there will be tiers and most likely charge characters aren't at the top. Though Boxer is top tier in ST right?

Online play really is a mess, but I am hoping that this free (last I checked) "tournament DLC" can/will fix things. Who knows though.

I'm caring less about the 3x P/K thing because the TE stick has 8 buttons on it...guess what I've mapped the last two buttons on each row to? Yeah.

Sirlin is totally right on the mapping buttons being retarded. I've run enough tourneys to realize the HDRemix system needs to be implemented in every fighting game from now until the end of time. So much wasted setup time!

Paladinz:
Yeah, I don't buy the argument that 6 buttons is necessary just because it's Street Fighter. I do understand that they realistically couldn't put out a SF game with 4 buttons because of the fanboy outrage on teh internets, but then THAT should be the argument for 6 buttons, not that it carries with it some intrinsic benefit to the game. Anyway, my comment about that (and Binkley's too, I think) was that such a system just feels antiquated in the wake of modern fighters and controllers.

But SFIV is all about tapping into the nostalgia people have for SFII so they wouldn't have changed it even if they could, I'm guessing.

Chris:
For Medium attacks, I just feel if you had to hit 2 buttons to do the medium attack, why not just have the medium attack button and simplify to 1 push. Pressure sensitive attacks are even more difficult I feel, and also relies a lot on controllers working right.

There will always be tiers, but balance wise, the gap would be smaller if the controls were similar. Hadoken as a move is better than sonic boom. +1 Hadoken. Hadoken is easier to bust out and link together with other moves, regardless of which side you are facing. +2 Hadoken!

Binkley:
We'll have to agree to disagree because I think the variety in movelists is important...otherwise everyone just starts feeling like a clone character (like MvC2 with its 50+ characters...how many of those are more or less clones?). Who knows, maybe there are some people can't do an SRK (maybe that's why there are multiple simplified commands now) but charging is easy for them?

Masa:
I thought the super system in SF Alpha 3 made the most sense. You would push LP for a level 1 super, MP for a level 2, and HP for level 3. It would have been nice to see a similar system implemented for SFIV, as far as the ultra combos went.

I'm not a SF player so I'm not privy to comment on the game system. I will say that as a console version of an arcade fighter goes, the port is more than what most people could ask for. I think we can all agree that console SFIV has much more to offer than a simple port of the coin-op version.

On the minus side, it's difficult to gauge how bad your lag will be when you play online matches. I've had 3 bar matches play with no lag, and apparently 0 bar matches can be lag-free too.

Chris:
See, I think anyone can comment on any game system. That's the point of making a game casual friendly. Do I have to play 100 hours to get the game, or can I just pick up and have fun. So feel free to comment away on the system.

Wes:
Charge moves are actually a game balance consideration, not a variety for the sake of variety consideration. Guile still has charge moves because if he didn't he'd be broken. Being able to Flash Kick whenever you wanted would be ridiculous. Being able to constantly spam slow Sonic Booms would be ridiculous. Taking advantage of when a character is charging a certain move, and when he isn't, is a huge part of the strategy of playing against them. Allowing Blanka/Honda/Dictator to throw their moves whenever they wanted would completely break them.

Minus 1.0 - 2.0 is a little harsh, especially since it's not the graphics that are bad, but the art style, which is subjective. While the man hands and the huge thighs are unattractive, they're certainly more realistic.

Regarding 6 button systems, the OG SFI cabinet actually came in two setups: one was with the big buttons, and one came in the standard 6 button arrangement we see now. Even though the big button one changed strength based on how hard you hit it, in actuality there were only 3 different strengths per button, so really it was just a janky gimmick.

Even if that were not true, iconic things in a series have become iconic after the original iteration. For example, Fire Emblem has a rock paper scissors game mechanic that was actually not present in the original game, but has become such a huge part of the series that the DS remake of the original has included it. Perhaps even more on point is SFI lacked the combo system of canceling moves into each other, but SFII had it, and it's now an iconic part of the game to the point that if you removed it would no longer be Street Fighter. Also, there were no different characters in the first game, while there are in every iteration after. The button system is no different in this regard.

Finally, game mechanics and balance...the 6 button system is actually a huge deal. Let's say they moved to a system where there were only one punch and one kick. How would you be able to vary the length and speed of your moves? This is a huge part of Street Fighter strategy. If they moved to a four button setup, you wouldn't be able to do medium strength moves, which is actually a huge deal for a lot of characters; Cammy's medium spinning backfist is the best one, but sometimes you need the long one and the short one, too.

There is a huge difference between having a fast weak kick, a medium medium kick, and a slow powerful kick vs having only a fast weak kick and a slow powerful kick. Every different attack actually serves a different purpose in Street Fighter. Generally, short is the speed poke when you just need to spam something, medium is the legit poke/combo starter, and roundhouse is strength/knockdown. In a 2D fighting game, you need all three, and you also need different normal attacks in different situations.

Anyway, as I said in my earlier email, I think the system is both iconic and necessary. It's hugely important from both a flavor standpoint and a mechanics standpoint.

Paladinz:
Okay, first of all I don't think we were suggesting we move down to 1 kick and 1 punch. That would be a little ridiculous. I think your argument is that historically three levels of moves leads to the moveset and strategy that Street Fighter has now. I agree with you there. If SF moved to 4 buttons, it would be a different game - I acknowledge that. I'm just saying that game could be better. I totally get that people may not think it is SF anymore because certain moves would go away or change. Capcom WOULD have to redesign the movesets - obviously I'm not saying you keep the current light and heavy attacks and get rid of all mediums across the board.

I'm only talking from the perspective of "if I was to make a 2D fighter, how many buttons would I use?". If Capcom had the motivation and the courage to do it, I think 4 buttons would be a better fit.

As far as needing all three versions of an attack in a 2D fighter, I think we only have to look at Guilty Gear to know that it's not true... you need to design your game around the number of buttons you choose. Capcom certainly can do this - they just won't, for a variety of reasons.

Wes:
Guilty Gear was built from the ground up to have 4 buttons, and I actually think there is less depth in the variety of attacks in that game. Taking away options from characters is actually one reason the game is so ridiculously unbalanced, imo.

Also, Binkley was using 3 button schemes to make a point; I should be allowed to, too ;)

At the end of the day, 4 button 2D fighters and 6 button 2D have advantages and disadvantages. I don't think one is strictly better than the other, which seems to be the argument here. 6 button 2d fighters offer more depth and strategy options, imo, while 4 button fighters offer simplicity and everything that comes with that (accessibility, not screwing up inputs, etc). They're different design philosophies that I think look towards different goals. The 4 button setup in Guilty Gear is successful in part because of the ridiculous speed that game moves at; newer players don't have time to react AND figure out which of 6 buttons to press. Street Fighter has always been more deliberately paced (in other words, slower), so people have more time to figure out which button they want to use. This extra time is gauged in milliseconds, but in the realm of human reaction speed, that's more than enough.

Fast is not necessarily better than slow, and different inputs and button options have evolved to reflect that.

Binkley:
But you could CHANGE the properties of the moves to make them balanced right? Like if jack Flash Kick's properties to be more like an SRK then give it an SRK command....

I don't think -1.0 to 2.0 is harsh, when you consider that a lot of game review systems do some sort of % system and graphics always make up at least 1/3 of that scale. It's probably generous.

I'm not saying we go 1 button for kick/punch. I'm just saying there are ways to map 6 buttons to 4 buttons and Capcom knows how to do this (MvC2 and some others). Or maybe we just get rid of light p/k (mainly used for linking any ways) and have poke+strong. I dunno, it just seems somewhat weird when every other FG has gone to 4 or less buttons. This isn't changing though and I think we'll have to accept this. I suppose it's deliberate differentiation. In your GG example, the game did go from 4 buttons --> 5 buttons so changing buttons during a game series isn't inconceivable. Though Blaz Blue (same team) has 4 buttons....

We're agreed that game lacks polish...so shouldn't that make it 7-8/10 max? The fact that I can't actually view ANY moves/combos from a character without executing them myself makes no sense what so ever. This is a feature that been in games FOREVER (SCII, DOA2/3, and others). I guess Capcom wanted to fill the disc with animated cut scenes and promo videos instead. :*( The positive spin is that I do feel like I'm in a time warp when I go to YT and search for character videos just to see basic/advanced combos and moves.

Wes:
Changing Guile's special moves properties completely destroys him as a discrete, unique character. His Sonic Boom traps are his main strategy, and they're predicated on him only being able to throw one Sonic Boom at a time. If he could get two out (given how slow they move, he completely could if he didn't have to charge), it would be ridiculous. If you made it so his moves were SRK/Hadoken, he would just be a shoto without a hurricane kick, which is stupid because he wouldn't need to exist. As is, his gameplay and strategy is completely different (we'll ignore for now that he's crappy in SFIV for a lot of reasons). Also, charging his moves allows the designers to give his moves different recovery time properties: in exchange for having to charge your projectile, you get to have less recover time than Hadokens and do shenanigans afterwards.

Regarding - 1.0-2.0, I'm just going to say art is subjective, graphics are not. The GRAPHICS in this game are good, but the art is questionable. I think it's hard to drop the entire game 1.0-2.0 points on a ten point scale; that's like docking the game a fifth of its score simply because you disagree with the art direction.

I think the gameplay in some unpolished games is so good the game should be scored higher than it's aggregate numbers. Saying any given game is an 7.0 is misleading when its gameplay is very good. I think that's the case here.

Yes, clearly Capcom knows how to make a 4 button fighter. The question is if it SHOULD. CvS2 is an extremely different game than Street Fighter 4. Street Fighter 4 would play very differently if it was built using 4 buttons. It would be a different game. This is clearly not the game Capcom wanted to make, for whatever reason. Whether that would make it a better or worse game is subjective, and somewhat impossible to figure out.

Finally, I never said Binkley was advocating going to a two button system, just that he was using two button systems as an example, and so was I.

February 27th, 2009 / Binkley / Tags: video games, street fighter iv / Trackback / Comments

Street Fighter IV Discussion Pt. 1

David Sirlin recently posted up his thoughts on Street Fighter IV.



This post has been inspired quite a bit of discussion among our friends here at Mediocre Minds. This discussion is pretty long so I've broken it up into several pages. I've also edited out parts of the conversation that were not directly related to the topic.

Only continue reading if you are ready for a lot of text....

Chris:
I agree with most of what Sirlin said. I do think the things he put in HD remix are better than what they have in SFIV.

Though compared to casual friendly, I do think the game is casual friendly with it's huge flash, character design, anime intros etc. He talks about link combos being not casual friendly, but if they are so hard to do, then two casuals probably aren't going to do it. I feel casuals can still play the game and have fun, do some flashy moves, etc. Games like Virtua Fighter to me is casual unfriendly, because if you don't know what you are doing, you probably aren't going to do any move beyond some weak looking jabs.

I do hate qcf, qcf - 3 button moves though. They should get rid of all 3 button moves for console releases. Also I feel the game is way offensive, rather than defensive. As their seems to be lot of super armor moves, priority attacks, 2 bars that fill up quick, etc. So I feel his "it's a defensive game because there are large levels" argument is not legit.

Wes:
I also miss a lot of what Sirlin did for HD Remix (double blind character selection is good, as is double blind opponent selection). The way online latency is handled also seems to be better in HD Remix, though there are discussions online about why SFIV couldn't use the GGPO system. The game is indeed designed to be more offensive minded, though I don't think Sirlin meant the game was heavier towards turtling. I think he just meant the large stage size was a surprising move because it is more suitable to a defensive style. This seems to go against the rest of the game philosophy.

Binkley:
I agree with most of what he said, but I wonder if this game will last like..5+ years at EVO (or 10 competitively like Turbo). His comments about online matching is particularly telling. I DO like 2 button throwing though because I am coming from the 3D world and it "feels right" to me. XP

I also am so grateful my TV has that split-screen feature because I totally know what I'm doing tonight while watching Chuck/Heroes...unlocking characters! I would seriously pay $$$ to get characters unlocked. Or at least make it like SCIV where I can beat the game 1-2 times and unlock virtually all the "normal" characters.

I think most of the casuals at Ainsley's yesterday at least liked the vibrant look. I know Lori likes the Okami style ink blots!

I still wish the Japanese had considered Sirlin's simplified inputs from HDRemix...like Cammy's Hooligan Throw. Was that always the command? Beatings lol

Still, at least we get 33 P for SRK! I've totally trained myself on this so much that I totally forgot how to do the real SRK motion lol

I think 3 button presses are here to stay, and I can't think of a very good solution if you want to have a game with both EX moves and Super/Ultras...you sorta need 3x push and it is a Capcom tradition....at least there are the 6 button pads by Madcatz Yeah when you hit the Super instead of the Ultra it's all out beatings...it's like missing a field goal because usually your Super sucks more than your Ultra and you just wasted your Super bar (which carries over from round to round unlike Revenge).

I also think that the game seems to favor offense but I will point out all the matches I've played in as well as my own skill level are definitely on the low side...watching tourney vids it does seem like the high level play is about defense (what a twist!). I don't think this is a knock against SF IV though, a lot of games do this with the exception of maybe GG (and I think Blaz Blue).

It seems that the way fighting games are evolving are: increased emphasis on offense + comeback potential (Revenge gauge, flaming fists in Tekken, etc.) I guess this is to make you feel like you are always in the game / make for exciting matches? To be fair real sports appear to mirror this preference (3 point line, moving home plate up + new equipment, etc.)...casuals love high scoring games!

Wes:
Obviously defense is important, but I think Capcom wants to get away from the turtlefest that Street Fighter III became thanks to parrying.

paladinz:
Agree with Sirlin on pretty much everything. He is a very logical and concise writer. I do think the focus on offense is intended, like you guys said. It's more fun (and casual-friendly) to play a game for its offense.

Personally, coming from Namco 3D fighters, I don't really like the 6 button setup though I know it will never change. I don't think you need 3 gradations between attack speeds/strength. That way, they could've used the other two buttons for throws/cancels. I think focus cancelling is really needlessly complicated and, for ultras, hitting 3 buttons that are in a LINE are much harder than hitting the equivalent of Soul Calibur's A+B+G. This puts the emphasis on mechanical skill rather than strategy. I totally agree with Sirlin that I would prefer the emphasis be on the latter.

Binkley:
Sirlin made a post about what is good:

And now we have other blog responses.

Ainsley:
Yeah, I read Sirilin's post and didn't like it much.

Not that I didn't agree with what he was saying, mostly I didn't have an opinion about what he was saying. Things like not liking the speed of the jumps, tech recovery system, and link combos in general are his opinions, and since I'm not fighting game buff I don't really agree or disagree.

It's more that his tone sounded non-objective, like ranting: Even his positives post has a negative slant, and sound nit-picky. I figured it had something to do with the face that people would be playing SF4 instead of HD Remix now...

Binkley:
I think his point is why is this game getting 100% and 10/10s from all the reviewers but we all know the real reason: it's SF. If this had been an MK game there would be all sorts of 70% and 7/10. But it's SF so the brand carries a lot.

I will say I have been thinking a lot about keeping conventions just "because that's historic/that's how it's always been done". Do we really need a 6 button fighting game anymore? MvC2 was really 4 right? The GG designers have decided 5 buttons is too many and are going back to 4 with Blaz Blue. Soul Calibur and Tekken have 4 and hell DOA and VF have 3. VF proves you can have 3 buttons and still have a crazy in depth game/system.

I think fighting games need to be more accessible like Smash, because otherwise in 1-2 generations there will be no more EVO or whatever. I note that I am apparently in the minority of the hardcore FG community in my views.

I also don't think it's fair to say he's annoyed just because it's overshadowed HD Remix. HD Remix is still at EVO and who knows it might last longer than SFIV at EVO...we shall see.

Anyays, Sirlin's point is valid, even if the game overshadows HDRemix and even if he were to care about, does this mean he can't criticize what he sees our its faults? Gabe and Tycho do just find ripping games apart despite the fact their first game was in their own words "about a 7".

Has anyone done the challenges? I'm annoyed that the commands are REALLY small on my TV. I should just go find a FAQ that lists it all. Dammit Capcom did you learn NOTHING from Dead Rising?! XP

paladinz:
Agreed. For several days now, I've been thinking this game is nowhere close to a 10. 7 sounds right. That doesn't mean it's a bad game at all (video game ratings be damned), but it certainly is getting overhyped just because it IS Street Fighter. And maybe I can say this because I've never been a SF junkie like a lot of people were. I have played the series and generally like it.

And yeah, Binkley, you and I were discussing the 6-button layout the other day and I do think it is antiquated and totally unnecessary. I think SF would benefit from going to a 4-button layout (light and heavy attacks is more than enough). I also don't think SF IV does enough to make the game available to everybody - they did Roman Cancels and made them infuriatingly hard to do - I can do them mostly at will perhaps, but the amount of input time means that I have to plan them out far ahead which kinda defeats the purpose IMO. The distinction between Ultras and Supers is really just incorrectly pressed buttons, which is lame. Hitting all punches or kicks is just not a good mechanic IMO. The button layout makes it worse on some joysticks like mine.

The reasons this game is as popular as it is: (1) the name and (2) that it is a lot like SF II and people have nostalgia for that game.

Masa:
It seems like if you're a casual player, SFIV is pretty easy to get into. But like the consensus seems to be, it's not very 'beginner-friendly.'

Wes:
While I agree that the game is getting 10/10 because it's Street Fighter, I think naming it something non-SF would still get it 8.5 or 9.5s. The game is extremely deep and rewards that, but it's easy to pick up and play. Furthermore, there's a constant sense of tension when managing your meter, and Ultras mean you can't fall asleep on your opponent even if you're way ahead. It's a little low on extras, and there's no interesting single player mode, though. Also, no double blind character selection online, and frankly, the online options are kind of sucky. As far as I can tell you can't get like 4 people into a lobby and play.

I happen to disagree on the necessity of a 6 button setup. I think for a Street Fighter game it's absolutely necessary. Speed and power are one thing, but the Medium attacks, especially the kicks, usually have the longest range, making them the best pokes. Other games have had 4 button setups, but those games were not Street Fighter games. The 6 button setup is part of what makes the game quintessentially Street Fighter.

Re: Sirlin, I think a lot of his complaints are completely valid, and show a lack of polish. The online functionality is the biggest one to me, but some of the Ultra stuff is starting to get on my nerves as well. I mentioned before I didn't have a problem hitting three buttons, but apparently I was wrong. I end up doing EX moves a lot now when trying to do an Ultra. Unlocking characters is also like so 1990s it's stupid.

It's his strategy vs. dexterity thing I do take a little issue with. Ultimately, the game should reward strategy more than dexterity. I agree on that. But it can't be one at the expense of the other. Should combos and moves be really simple to favor strategy? I don't think so; making the best combo double tap forward --> w.punch, m.kick, f.punch would be kind of stupid, especially if everyone can do it. On the other hand, I agree it's sort of silly that high level players will be able to constantly spam light attacks and hope one of them connects, then Ultra combo me. I don't think it turns 2p matches into 1p matches like he claims, but there comes a point where some of us are just glorified training dummies.

I think the game is excellent. I think it's the best fighting game to come out in the last couple years, 3D or 2D. It's certainly the best 2D fighter, but the 2D fighter is something of a dying genre. I'm glad this game is giving it a shot in the arm.

February 26th, 2009 / Binkley / Tags: video games, street fighter iv / Trackback / Comments